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kcmtoys
Posted: Monday, May 23, 2016 10:41:30 AM

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Very nice. Thanks for posting. Ken

Model Albums: https://www.facebook.com/Kcmtoys-904904696294223/
Mr. Scholz
Posted: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 4:48:24 PM
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Location: Germany, CE
Thanks, Ken!

Now, what we've got here... hmm. An N-Scale model and not even finnished: It's an MENCK Model F quarry shovel from the 20ies. A machine of the 300 ton class with an 6,7 cy dipper. Mainly for ripping lime stone.


MENCK MODELL F 001 by FatCatGotHot
Mr. Scholz
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 4:07:22 PM
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Location: Germany, CE
Hey mates,

almost finished - a dedicated 90 ton MENCK M251 rock ripping shovel.



M251 Heavy Duty ripper dipper 010
by FatCatGotHot



M251 Heavy Duty ripper dipper 011
by FatCatGotHot


It's the 1/87 NZG model combined with a 1/60 Wiking face shovel attachement. A lot of work went into it.


M251 Heavy Duty ripper dipper 004
by FatCatGotHot



Here you can see this dipper means business! It's made for ripping slag and such.


M251 Heavy Duty ripper dipper 001
by FatCatGotHot



Also the base machine recieved some customization.


M251 Heavy Duty ripper dipper 005
by FatCatGotHot, yes, we know, on Flickr...




Have fun!

Cheers,
Max
modelmaniac
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 6:14:35 PM

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Location: england
Looks goodApplause Those teeth look straight out of a dinosaur's mouth!LOL.Looking forward to finished pics,with cables in place.
Exkvate3140
Posted: Tuesday, July 30, 2019 10:15:57 PM
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That dipper looks great.
Steve
Mr. Scholz
Posted: Thursday, August 01, 2019 2:55:58 PM
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Location: Germany, CE
Thank you for the feedback!

I never found a manufacturer that designed their shovels so much for ripping like MENCK did. Probably because blasting quickly generated "collateral damage" to nearby towns here in Germany.

Before the M251 will be weathered, I hought of making some photos of it still factory-fresh. In other words: Just caught this truck yesterday, looks like somthing big is going on in my neighbourhood...




M251 Heavy Duty ripper dipper 014
by FatCatGotHot



Cheers,

Max
modelmaniac
Posted: Thursday, August 01, 2019 6:25:41 PM

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I never found a manufacturer that designed their shovels so much for ripping like MENCK did.

I remember way back in the early eighties,getting a Siku Menck m500h.From then on,I knew they made proper digging machines.Looking at older Menck equipment,shows they were always innovating,many things they patented are now 'standard'.
Mr. Scholz
Posted: Friday, August 02, 2019 10:34:46 AM
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Location: Germany, CE
Yeah, i had this very same SIKU toy. My M500H was red and silver. It weven had a small sprocket on the turntable. Pretty cool toy excavator.
Weserhutte
Posted: Friday, August 02, 2019 3:12:24 PM
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Mr. Scholz wrote:
I never found a manufacturer that designed their shovels so much for ripping like MENCK did.


What do you mean by this? How were Menck cable shovels distinctly different (better for ripping) compared to those from Demag, O&K, Weserhütte, etc.?

modelmaniac wrote:
From then on,I knew they made proper digging machines.Looking at older Menck equipment,shows they were always innovating,many things they patented are now 'standard'.


What innovations are you referring to? The only significant patents I'm aware of were for the scrapedozers and diesel pile hammers. Menck hydraulic excavators were not that great other than the Koehring machines produced under license.

Mr. Scholz
Posted: Friday, August 02, 2019 5:08:45 PM
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Ooooh yeah, Weserhutte! Thanks for chiming in. Now we are talking.


I have to say that I was rather aming towards established US-manufacturers like BUCYRUS, P&H, MARION etc. then comparing MENCK to other german brands.


In general, Germany is much denser populated then the US and so our quarries are much closer to settlements then in America. And so the walls are much steeper then in american quarries. Of course, also other german manufacturers had to deal with it. DEMAG built some amazing quarry shovels like the U34 and U35, but only until shortly after WW2. With other quarry shovels, DEMAG never had the success like MENCK. Also Weserhutte build big shovels, but no all-electric sepcialized quarry machines like its two direct competitors.


In many cases, blasting in quarries here in Germany was forbidden because of proximity to buildings. So ripping was needed, but the narrow quarries then offered a big risk of rock slides. When you want to rip rock with a shovel, you have to get it close to danger. MENCK was the only supplier who really could provide machines suited for ripping under such very severe conditions from the 1920ies onwards.


So here the destinct features of MENCKs quarry shovels and why they are so good for ripping:


1. Extremly massive, short and high quarry undercarriage. Puts all upper works as high as possible. So in case of rock slide, it acts like a wave-breaker and can take some serious beating

2. Upper carbody armoured with up to 1/2" of sheet metal.

3. Compared to machine weight, relative small dipper on a long boom/handle combination. The 230 ton MENCK EN had the same reach like a 350 ton MARION, but only a 6 yard dipper. So you keep a nasty, instable wall during ripping as far away as possible. And you concentrate the bail pull on a relative small bucket, which increases ripping force

4. Compared to BUCYRUS quarry shovels, also MENCK had double reduction hoist winch drives. But further the hoist line used a double pulley design. This made the shovels slower compared to US-machines, but offered very high bail pull.

5. MENCK designed specialized ripping teeth for its dippers, often tailored to meet the requirements of a customer. I never saw this on DEMAG, Weserhutte or american machines or elsewere.


On international jobs, like hydro powerplants in the Alps in Switzerland and Austria, it showed that US-american shovels were designed rather for speed and efficiency while the MENCKS were much slower, but could work where other shovels had to be withdrawn. In Sweden, a quarry used a Ruston Bucyrus 110 RB next to a MENCK EN. Where it needed 20 seconds cycle time, the EN needed 30 seconds - but the EN could rip material that needed to be blasted when the 110 RB moved in.


A 1930ies vintage MENCK Model E during ripping. Note the high undercarriage

Bild 018 Menck-Mod.E-02 by FatCatGotHot


A MENCK EN showing its long reach over 105 feet combined when swinging 180°

Bild 031 MENCK EN Rheinkalk Schlagweite by FatCatGotHot


The EN from Malmoe, the one that was working next to the 110-RB. Picture from collection of T. Andersson

MALMOE MENCK EN Andersson 001 by FatCatGotHot


A 165 ton, 5 yard MENCK DN in front of a threatening highwall

Menck-DN-53 by FatCatGotHot


Another DN in a Pozzolana quarry near Rome, had a 3.3 yard dipper on a longer boom. When you can see the passes of its teeth, it's a ripping job.

Bild 047 DN Lava Italien by FatCatGotHot




But all my talking, you can concentrate it on the following two pictures: Specialized ripping teeth MENCK developed for a DN and a M250 - who else did this for their shovels?


MENCK Reisssporn DN by FatCatGotHot


MENCK Reisssporn M250 by FatCatGotHot



Cheers,

MENCK-Max




Mr. Scholz
Posted: Friday, August 02, 2019 6:15:58 PM
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Location: Germany, CE
Hey mates, saw that my pictures from my first posts got lost. Re-uploaded them.


Cheers,
Max
Weserhutte
Posted: Sunday, August 04, 2019 10:11:10 PM
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Hi Max,

That is a lot to respond to and I'm sorry I don't have the time right now to dig out my Menck, Demag, Marion, P&H, etc. brochures and catalogs to respond in detail. I will come back to you on your 5 points in the nest days and the rest as time permits.
Mr. Scholz
Posted: Monday, August 05, 2019 1:13:37 PM
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Location: Germany, CE
Hello Weserhutte,

now this is the best I could hope for. Take your time, I posted a lot. As I was publishing an article on Menck quarry shovels, I had it all ready in the pipe. I appreciate your efforts, thanks mate.


With best regards,

Max
Weserhutte
Posted: Wednesday, August 14, 2019 10:50:35 PM
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I didn't forget about you, Max.

Unfortunately, this is probably not the response you were hoping for. And for what it's worth, it's not the response I originally imagined writing.

What you have posted covers the '30s through the '60s/70s. In my opinion it is simply not possible to generalize anything over that length of time.

If you want to compare a particular Menck shovel, I've probably got the specs of an American machine of the same vintage and bucket size. Then we can try to make a fair comparison. I need to see what Menck brochures I actually have and that will help, but there is no extra time right now to unpack them.

I can also tell you for certain that I have never personally seen a cable shovel with grafted extra long teeth, but I seem to remember seeing a photo of a Northwest with a similar design. Maybe it was in one of the Northwest history books. One of the authors used to come on here and may see this (paging Mr. Torres). He could easily confirm or refute this so I will send a PM.






Mr. Scholz
Posted: Thursday, August 15, 2019 8:35:41 PM
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Location: Germany, CE
Hello Weserhutte,

thanks for the reply! If we want to focus on the ripping aspect, we should look at shovels from the 30ies/40ies. Since the first DN prototype was built 1938 (or so), we can use this as a starting point. As I have a brochure of a 120-B dated 1930, we can compare measurements, dipper length and capacity and so on. From the early 1960ies on, Menck shovels were used more and more for loading blasted material and this changed the design of the dippers. But this will be trated later.

Best regards,
Max
Weserhutte
Posted: Sunday, August 18, 2019 10:48:05 PM
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Location: America
If you have brochures of competitive shovel of the same vintage (within 3-5 years), that would be a great place to start if enough information is there.

I just don't have the free time to dig my stuff out at present. I'm lucky to look at this forum weekly.
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